2011/12/21 - Jakarta has been retired.

1:59:01 PM: <sam> jon: log running? 1:59:20 PM: <jon> of course. 1:59:43 PM: <cgu> I thought it was soccer... The goal is a lot bigger. 1:59:49 PM: <cgu> Room for a server farm. 1:59:55 PM: <sam> We'll see if we get as many people as last year. 2:00:13 PM: <sam> ceki: it is roller hockey. Game is in 2.5 hours. 2:00:27 PM: <sam> s/year/week/ 2:00:50 PM: *** dlh (+dianeh@shell.tsoft.com) joined #jakarta 2:00:59 PM: <sam> Hi diane! 2:01:06 PM: <cgu> sam: anything else? 2:01:18 PM: <dlh> Hideeho -- did I miss it? 2:01:34 PM: <sam> ceki: proposal for cvs layout & build procedures 2:01:47 PM: <cgu> Ah! 2:01:51 PM: <sam> diane: not started yet. Ceki has to leave early. 2:02:18 PM: <dlh> Oh good -- for a minute there I thought maybe we were doing the off-by-one thing again :) 2:02:22 PM: <cgu> The directory layout of a project is very closely related to 2:02:33 PM: <cgu> it's build script. 2:02:59 PM: <cgu> The dirlayout document will need a lot of work toget right. 2:03:17 PM: <cgu> You input is very much needed. 2:03:48 PM: *** Pete (+Pete@d354-ps0-mel.alphalink.com.au) joined #jakarta 2:03:52 PM: <Pete> hiho 2:03:57 PM: <cgu> The binary CVS discussion did not lead to a white/black conclusion. 2:04:07 PM: <cgu> Hi Pete! Good morning... 2:04:12 PM: <Pete> morning ;) 2:04:24 PM: <Pete> we started yet - or is time for a tea run? 2:04:27 PM: <geir> good morning! 2:04:35 PM: <geir> tea and that yeast stuff... :) 2:04:42 PM: <cgu> I have to leave in 5 minutes. 2:04:52 PM: <Pete> doh 2:04:59 PM: <Pete> mmm yeast stuff 2:05:27 PM: <geir> if Homer Simpson lived in Austrailia... 2:05:38 PM: <sam> Pete: I've enjoyed the discussion on avalon ;-) 2:05:52 PM: <cgu> Otherwise, I was complaining about the seemingly needless copying going in build scripts. 2:06:27 PM: <sam> Ceki: unless filtering is used, no copying should be necessary. 2:07:09 PM: <Pete> sam: yer? what do you mean? ;) 2:07:11 PM: <cgu> That seems reasonable to me too. 2:09:15 PM: <dlh> Hey Pete -- while Sam and Ceki discuss CVS and builds, can I ask you, do you know much about IRC? 2:09:44 PM: <Pete> not really - no - sorry ;) 2:10:14 PM: <cgu> In T4 for example, the contents of build/** are mostly dynamically generated and then 2:10:47 PM: <cgu> copied to dist/** as is. I don't want to pick on T4. It's just an example 2:10:55 PM: <cgu> I am aware of. 2:11:22 PM: <sam> Strunk and White: omit needless copies. ;-) 2:12:09 PM: <cgu> Nothing tragic, it all works but seems redundant to me. No needless white space, OK. 2:12:46 PM: <sam> [I guess that didn't translate well; see http://www.strunkandwhite.com/ ] 2:13:04 PM: <Pete> cgu: I believe Avalon does the same for a few things (generates docs to build and then copies em round for dist/local-docs) 2:14:53 PM: <sam> 2115 GMT, and significantly less of a quorum that last week. 2:15:17 PM: <cgu> Hmm, ok. Why not generate into dist/** and zip or tar that? 2:15:42 PM: <cgu> Shall we let Sam begin? 2:16:19 PM: <sam> Ceki - if you need to run, do what you have to do... 2:16:28 PM: <dlh> Want me to send a quick reminder mail to the pmc list? 2:16:33 PM: <Pete> The Elements of Style: What you don't think much of our (my?) command of the ENglish language? ;) 2:16:51 PM: <cgu> I am actually using the computer of a friend in his beedroom. It's 2:17:15 PM: <cgu> 11:15PM here. He'll tell me when I have to stop. 2:17:15 PM: <sam> Pete: you definately do not follow the dictim of "omit needless words". 2:17:26 PM: <sam> ;-) 2:17:28 PM: <Pete> cgu: reasoning is that historically they were further manipulated, besides which they are copied to multiple places.. They possibly could be removed bnow though ;) 2:17:48 PM: <cgu> Good to hear. 2:18:13 PM: <sam> Ted: still here? 2:18:26 PM: <Pete> sam: ;) 2:19:14 PM: <Ted> Yep 2:19:27 PM: <sam> 1.1 Ted: reformat the rules for revolutionaries document from an email to a bylaw 2:19:36 PM: <Ted> Done. 2:19:47 PM: <cgu> Have to leave now. 2:20:07 PM: <Pete> seeya ;/ 2:20:14 PM: <sam> Ceki: ok, later! 2:20:19 PM: <sam> Ted: URL? 2:20:22 PM: <cgu> +1 on the rules for revs. Bye now. 2:20:24 PM: <Ted> http://jakarta.apache.org/site/proposal.html#decisions/branches 2:20:33 PM: *** cgu has signed off (Leaving) 2:21:02 PM: <sam> Ted: +1 2:21:48 PM: <Pete> Is there a summary/diff of changes since last time? 2:22:24 PM: <Ted> Everything is either in strike-out or maroon font 2:22:45 PM: <Ted> For the R4R, this is the only time 2:22:49 PM: <Ted> except for James' original 2:23:00 PM: *** dfs (-dfs@24.180.134.184) joined #jakarta 2:23:55 PM: <Pete> duh me - right okay looks good +1 2:24:24 PM: <geir> I have a specific issue re the rules for revs, but this may not be the right place 2:24:34 PM: <sam> Geir: go ahead 2:25:02 PM: <geir> in the case of commons, where the 'main cvs' is a set of subprojects in their own right, and we have the 'sandbox' 2:25:32 PM: <geir> to get to the point : 2:25:46 PM: <geir> we already have in commons the basis of R for R because anyone can go start something in the sandbox 2:26:02 PM: <geir> and in the main cvs components themsevles, I think that R for R should apply as well 2:26:18 PM: <geir> so getting to the point :) : 2:26:25 PM: <geir> can it be something that a subproject can modify? 2:26:38 PM: <geir> because it would be 'Jakarta policy' 2:26:50 PM: <geir> w/ no leeway for the projects as needs or situations dictate 2:27:00 PM: <geir> (done) 2:27:47 PM: <Pete> Lots of things are "Jakarta" policy that projects ignore ;) 2:27:50 PM: <geir> the point is subtle, and prollie lost on anyone not involved in commons 2:27:58 PM: <sam> Outside of legal issues (including ownership of name, etc), I see little that a subproject can't tweak. 2:28:09 PM: <geir> ok. I am happy to leave it there 2:28:27 PM: <sam> 1.2 Ted: revise bylaws 2:28:48 PM: <Ted> Same place, see outer loop. 2:29:55 PM: <sam> Ted: is the proposal ready for a vote/adoption? 2:30:08 PM: <Ted> Sure. 2:31:04 PM: <geir> I assume we can read and discuss over the next month? 2:31:27 PM: <sam> OK, +1 here. Represents a (significant, IMHO) improvement and can always be ammended. 2:31:36 PM: <sam> Geir: how much longer does it need to be posted? ;-) 2:31:55 PM: <geir> how long has it been done? 2:32:05 PM: <geir> sorry - I didn't start looking at it until now 2:32:07 PM: <Pete> +1 on it but I think that in the future the r4r needs to be expanded ;) 2:32:10 PM: <Ted> Oh, 3 months or so. 2:32:13 PM: <geir> ah 2:32:17 PM: <geir> :) 2:32:26 PM: <geir> I thought you were still working on it. 2:35:26 PM: <sam> Hmmm. I'm not sure we have enough of a quorum to ammend the bylaws. 2:36:09 PM: <sam> And people seem to be uncharacteristically quiet today.... 2:36:18 PM: <geir> (reading...) 2:36:19 PM: <Pete> whos here but not here exactly? 2:36:41 PM: <dfs> me 2:37:08 PM: <dfs> sorry, today had some unexpected surprises (sorry for being late) 2:38:07 PM: <dlh> I'm here --- looking thru Ted's stuff (hadn't seen the color-coded version before...) 2:38:07 PM: <Pete> check out this feature request for ant: 2:38:11 PM: <Pete> I think it'd be useful to generate Makefiles from build.xml ... The reasons 2:38:17 PM: <Pete> given for the creation of Ant had to do with pitfalls of writing Makefiles. 2:38:23 PM: <Pete> Perhaps one generated from build.xml would remove that problem. Pulling up a JVM 2:38:27 PM: <Pete> to run Ant is simply too slow at times. 2:39:31 PM: <sam> LOL...First thing people say about Ant is how much faster it is when compiling Java code. 2:40:11 PM: <Pete> ;) 2:40:20 PM: <dlh> I was thinking of pointing him to imake, but I thought that'd be cruel :) 2:40:28 PM: <Pete> hehe 2:40:32 PM: <sam> 1.3 Ceki: proposal for cvs layout & build procedures (done) 2:40:43 PM: <sam> 1.4 Sam: pmc election process 2:41:01 PM: <sam> I don't have anything prepared....are people aware of what was recently done by/to the XML PMC? 2:41:17 PM: <geir> no 2:41:34 PM: <geir> but I assume it has been posted for 3 months 2:41:41 PM: <Pete> You mean the it go poof phenomenon? 2:42:58 PM: <sam> The XML PMC was disbanded. An election was held on general@xml. 2:43:14 PM: <sam> Votes were secret - counted by the board. Five were selected. 2:43:36 PM: <sam> Essentially, it was the equivalent of a complete re-election. 2:44:10 PM: <dlh> Re: Ted's stuff -- there's a sentence where he says "tactic approval" -- I suspect he meant "tacit approval" (it's in the Note wrt "Lazy", under Voting). 2:44:10 PM: <sam> Right now PMC members are until resignation or being kicked out. Should everybody be subject to reelection? 2:44:42 PM: <Ted> Yes, tacit. 2:45:01 PM: <geir> there's plenty of upside to that, but downside is total loss of institutional memory, so to speak 2:45:11 PM: <geir> if a lot of turnover 2:45:36 PM: <Pete> I think reelection is a nice aim - however I assume that in most cases the same people will sit year after year (unless they abandon their projects). 2:45:41 PM: <sam> Downside is theoretical. The ASF board has an annual relection. When the dust settled, there was a diff of -2/+2. 2:45:57 PM: <geir> yes, theoretical - 'if' 2:46:38 PM: <sam> One downside is potential lack of representation...e.g., three Tomcat guys and noone interested in ecs. 2:46:56 PM: <geir> what about the chair being elected from sitting members? 2:47:30 PM: <sam> We had a significant discussion about representation in the XML PMC. I thought it important. Scott thought it important and 1-1. Others thought it was UNimportant. 2:48:03 PM: <sam> Re: 1-1, I used avalon as an example. Splitting into multiple CVSes with no new committers does not imply the need for more representatives. 2:48:05 PM: <Pete> it would be nice if every project could elect/nominate/whatever a champion. The problem will then be that some projects get over-represented with respect to how much dev goes on at jakarta. 2:48:27 PM: <sam> Pete: define project. How many votes does Avalon get? Tomcat? Servletapi? 2:48:45 PM: <Pete> avalon 1 2:48:59 PM: <Pete> tomcat+servlet api: 1 2:49:10 PM: <Pete> (I assume servlet api part of tomcat) 2:49:14 PM: <sam> The XML pmc decided on 1 committer one vote. The ASF board does one member one vote. 2:49:34 PM: <Pete> 1 committer one vote could work aswell 2:49:37 PM: <sam> Pete: tomcat3/4 one vote! I'd like to see that ;-) 2:50:09 PM: <geir> it's a tomcat committer a tomcat committer? 2:50:16 PM: <geir> s/it's/isn't/ 2:50:43 PM: <Pete> geir: huh? 2:50:52 PM: <Pete> sam: could be fun huh? ;) 2:51:10 PM: <geir> I thought sam was saying that if you are a committer in tomcat3 and tomcat4, you only get 1 2:51:20 PM: <geir> but I didn't think there was a distinction 2:51:22 PM: <sam> Geir: Tomcat 4 was a revolution. Nearly a bloody one at that. 2:51:44 PM: <geir> I remember the mess - so the committers are segmented? 2:53:42 PM: <sam> Geir, doesn't matter - the point is that however you try to group projects, people will complain. ;-) 2:54:31 PM: <Pete> may I add people will complain regardless of what we do ;) 2:54:32 PM: <sam> My thoughts at this point is to model after the ASF board and XML PMC - annual reelections, predetermined number of seats (smaller than today), and 1 committer one vote. 2:55:02 PM: <sam> Pete: ;-) 2:55:18 PM: <dfs> makes sense 2:55:37 PM: <Pete> I like aswell 2:55:57 PM: <geir> q: why not 1 per project? 2:56:16 PM: <dfs> one vote or one seat? 2:56:27 PM: <geir> seat 2:56:38 PM: <geir> never mind 2:56:39 PM: <Pete> some projects have 10 active committers, others have 1 - should they get equal representation? 2:56:45 PM: <geir> never mind 2:56:46 PM: <dfs> seems like it would get too big 2:58:35 PM: <geir> so where are we? 2:58:51 PM: <sam> OK, we have time to think about this for a bit. Next election should probably coincide with the end of my term. 2:59:01 PM: <sam> 3.1 Consistent mailing list policies (moderation, etc) 2:59:55 PM: <sam> Are people happy or unhappy with the current moderators or lack thereof? 3:00:05 PM: <Pete> I think consistent naming should be used and moderation policies. 3:00:14 PM: <Pete> we need a moderator for pmc list ;) 3:00:41 PM: <Ted> People often ask about newsgroups as an alternative 3:00:55 PM: <geir> why? 3:01:59 PM: <Ted> Traffic -- downloading all the messages. 3:03:13 PM: <sam> My preference would be a general policy with subprojects being able to tailor. Trouble is that now we can't tell if what we have is a tailor or an accident. ;-) 3:04:25 PM: <sam> I guess the suggestion is that all lists be open only to subscribers with the rest moderated, with the PMC and announcements lists being open and strictly moderated respectively. 3:04:25 PM: <sam> OK? 3:05:00 PM: <Pete> sounds good to me 3:05:04 PM: <Pete> ie +1 3:05:10 PM: <geir> why not moderate pmc as well? 3:06:03 PM: <sam> Scenario: someone outside the PMC wants to report a security bug in Tomcat or GPL code in commons... 3:06:42 PM: <geir> ... and? doesn't a moderator just let that go through? 3:06:44 PM: <Pete> time thing? ie we can't wait till moderator tags it as go? 3:06:56 PM: <geir> Scenario : www.bigguns.com.... 3:07:09 PM: <geir> ... keeps the spam out... 3:07:18 PM: <sam> Moderators have been known to introduce significant delays... ;-) 3:07:41 PM: <geir> anyway that duty can be shared? 3:08:01 PM: <sam> Has spam been a problem on the PMC list. I interpreted Pete's first comment to be that we should moderate the SUBSCRIBERS. ;-) 3:08:10 PM: <geir> :) 3:09:08 PM: <Pete> actually I was talking about spam but I guess it is only one list so ... ;) 3:09:45 PM: <sam> If someone wants to volunteer to moderate the PMC, let me know. Any more new business? Geir? 3:10:05 PM: <geir> yes 3:10:14 PM: <geir> thanks - I didn't read my email yet :) 3:10:27 PM: <geir> 1) Anyone mind if I put a 'news' sidebar on the jakarta homepage? 3:10:33 PM: <geir> the news is currently hidden. 3:11:08 PM: <geir> 2) Any interest for or against in putting together a 'jakarta job board' for people with experience with jakarta 'technologies'? 3:11:31 PM: <geir> for example, Fedor from Turbine/Vel land is looking for a job, and has tremendous Turbine / Vel experience.... 3:11:34 PM: <Pete> Essentials 3:11:44 PM: <geir> sorry? 3:11:47 PM: <Pete> Essentials?news not enough? 3:11:53 PM: <Pete> Essentials/news not enough? 3:11:55 PM: <Pete> bleh 3:11:57 PM: <Pete> ;) 3:12:01 PM: <geir> the news is hidden behind a link. 3:12:10 PM: <geir> it might be nice to be able to glance at it for new things. 3:12:29 PM: <Pete> oh - you mean dynamically generate sidebar for news items? 3:12:51 PM: <geir> dynamic - when the news is updated.... take the top three and put the headline or soething with a link 3:12:59 PM: <geir> (small, on the side) 3:12:59 PM: <Pete> sounds good to me 3:13:38 PM: <sam> Personally, I'd flip it. News is the majority with links to the rest. 3:13:52 PM: <sam> Example of a good site (IMHO): http://www.php.net 3:13:52 PM: <Ted> - 3:13:56 PM: <Ted> - 3:13:57 PM: <Pete> job board sounds ok to me - one issue is we don't want for it to seem like it is apache sanctioned. ie just because Bob claims he can do X with technology Y in Apache land 3:14:08 PM: <geir> I didn't want to rock that boat too hard, re the front page. dind't know if there was history. 3:14:26 PM: <geir> I'll try something and then we can unwind if it doesn't create joy... 3:14:35 PM: *** Ted has signed off () 3:14:36 PM: <geir> Pete : that was my worry too 3:15:13 PM: <sam> Geir: our problem is generally not enough people wanting to do things, not people wanting to keep things as they are. 3:15:18 PM: <Pete> I think it would be good to have default front page news if thats what you are getting at 3:15:24 PM: *** Ted (-ted@roc-24-24-50-8.rochester.rr.com) joined #jakarta 3:15:32 PM: <Pete> rehi ;) 3:15:54 PM: <geir> well, there are strange threads of history sometimes :) 3:16:10 PM: <geir> so I will just do it and apologize later :) 3:16:29 PM: <Pete> works for me ;) 3:16:39 PM: <sam> Jon: still here? 3:16:52 PM: *** Received CTCP "TIME" from Pete 3:17:10 PM: <sam> If anybody has strong opinions on this subject (web site), it would be jon. 3:17:46 PM: <geir> yes, but the apologize later approach gets points with him :) 3:18:23 PM: <geir> I can ask him later too, so we don't hold this up 3:18:26 PM: <dlh> I like Geir's idea -- I don't click on the News link all that often, but I'd probably read some little "headlines" section (then click on anything that intrigued me) 3:18:40 PM: <sam> Subproject status? I'd suggest everyone simply post. 3:19:02 PM: <dlh> Post where? 3:19:13 PM: <sam> Alexandria - three competing/cooperating proposals. Trying to converge on a single DTD. Turbine continues to frustrate Gump. 3:19:26 PM: <sam> Diane: here. 3:20:19 PM: <Pete> James: A new committer adding in all sorts of features (NNTP, allowing multiple protocol handlers etc). There is a few issues with remoteManagement but other than that all is well 3:21:47 PM: <geir> Velocity : had the v1.0 release April 2, v1.0.1 bugfix release April 23, things are going very well. 3:21:53 PM: <Ted> Taglibs: very busy. 4 new releases. 3 new proposals. 3:22:07 PM: <dlh> Ant - Stefan's voting for Ant2 has completed, so I expect a call for proposals will be coming soon. A 1.4 release is planned as well -- probably sometime around June. The Antidote GUI has several new committers and was moved into a separate area in CVS. 3:22:58 PM: <geir> JMeter : just getting into it. Introduced myself to the main committers, they understand what I am doing. They had an alpha release at the end of March. I see a slow but steady stream of activity. 3:23:00 PM: <Pete> Avalon: Framework and Basic Components going beta to match Cocoon. Aim is for a release start of next month - realistically halfway through next month. Phoenix (application server) has recently got JMX managemtn added - which almost brings it to "ready" in my book (still misses proper logging messages) 3:24:18 PM: <geir> ted - commons? 3:24:33 PM: <Ted> (You were doing that for me, Geir) 3:24:58 PM: <geir> ah. I am ready, but figured if you were here :) 3:25:52 PM: <geir> Commons : booming in waves :) Have our first released component, the 'Cactus' J2EE unit testing component. Was called J2EEUnit when on sourceforge. Current in beta, expecting a May 1 1.0 release I think. 3:26:29 PM: <sam> OK, I'll ask on the PMC list for the remainder. 3:26:55 PM: <geir> (I had more, but will post to list...) 3:27:07 PM: <sam> Geir: go ahead then... 3:27:18 PM: <sam> (I need to leave in about 20 minutes) 3:27:23 PM: <geir> I already deleted it from buffer... will post. 3:27:25 PM: <geir> :) 3:27:27 PM: <geir> sorry 3:27:45 PM: <geir> go on 3:28:06 PM: <sam> I don't know how to handle James's quasi-emeritus status. 3:28:13 PM: <sam> Anybody got any ideas? 3:28:22 PM: <geir> it can't be modeled after the apache emeritus? 3:29:50 PM: <sam> OK will do. (It's easier to get forgiveness than permission...) 3:30:18 PM: <geir> I was asking more than suggesting :) 3:30:44 PM: <geir> I was wondering what the downside would be - I don' 3:30:49 PM: <geir> t understand all the implications. 3:31:47 PM: <sam> I was a frequent critic of the previous PMC, and went head to head with JDD on a number of occasions. I feel a bit uncomfortable unilaterally moving him off the active list. 3:32:24 PM: <geir> ok. didn't he request it? 3:33:10 PM: <Pete> we can always postpone it to next meeting when we have more peeps here. I don't see any problem with what you suggest but JDD doesn't like me much so ... ;) 3:33:30 PM: <sam> He said "quasi" or some such. But the ASF allows virtually instant reinstatement upon requests. 3:34:16 PM: <sam> Pete: FYI - JDD and I seem to disagree often on mailing lists, but we seek each other out whenever we can in person. It's an odd relationship. 3:34:58 PM: <Pete> sam: ;) 3:35:16 PM: <sam> OK, I'll touch bases with JDD and then update the web site. 3:35:39 PM: <sam> Last item on the agenda: schedule for next meeting. 3:36:20 PM: <Pete> I would prefer the alternate times but am okay with this one. 7am is muuuuch better than 6am ;) 3:36:51 PM: <sam> I'm on vacation 14-18 of May. 7th is good for me, and 21 may be ok. 3:37:29 PM: <geir> I am open at the moment. default +1 3:38:17 PM: <geir> want to hash this out on the list? 3:38:31 PM: <geir> this is glacial in velocity... 3:38:48 PM: <sam> Suggestion: 21 May, 0400 GMT. 3:38:58 PM: <dlh> Anytime is usually fine with me, though I'd prefer either the morning or the evening, rather than the middle of the day. 3:39:20 PM: <sam> (Sunday night in California, noon in Melbourne) 3:39:46 PM: <sam> 2100 California (prev day) 3:39:46 PM: <sam> 0000 NY 3:39:46 PM: <sam> 0400 GMT 3:39:46 PM: <sam> 0600 Zurich 3:39:46 PM: <sam> 1200 Melbourne 3:40:26 PM: <sam> And next month, we will rotate to 2100 GMT. OK? 3:40:27 PM: <geir> midnight on a sunday? ok by me 3:40:33 PM: <dlh> Sounds good to me. 3:40:39 PM: <Ted> +1 3:41:02 PM: <Pete> +1 3:41:34 PM: <dfs> +1 3:41:37 PM: <sam> OK, I move to adjourn the meeting. 3:41:43 PM: <sam> Seconds? 3:41:49 PM: <geir> second :) 3:41:52 PM: <dlh> second 3:41:54 PM: <dfs> i'm sorry today didn't turn out to be a good day for me. i'll send an update and some other comments to the list. 3:41:55 PM: <dfs> second 3:42:25 PM: <geir> ok. gotta scoot. take care. 3:42:31 PM: <Pete> cheerio 3:42:33 PM: *** geir has signed off () 3:42:35 PM: <sam> Later... 3:42:39 PM: *** Ted has signed off () 3:42:51 PM: <dlh> Bye 3:42:52 PM: <Pete> bye ;)